The Challenges and Triumphs of Building an Airline with Jim Sullivan

In this episode of the Jump Seat, host Chris Glass sits down with Jim Sullivan, a veteran in the aviation industry with a storied career spanning decades. Jim shares his journey from aspiring airline pilot to holding key leadership roles, including Vice President of Flight Operations at Frontier Airlines and Chief Operating Officer at Lynx Air.

Chris and Jim discuss the intricacies of starting and managing airlines, the evolution of the ultra-low-cost carrier model, and the unique challenges faced in the Canadian aviation market. Jim also offers insights into his upcoming role at Surfer Mobility, where he will focus on the electrification of aircraft and the future of air mobility.

Tune in for a fascinating conversation about the highs and lows of the aviation industry and what lies ahead.

Chapters

• 0:00 Career Journey in the Aviation Industry
• 8:33 Challenges of Ultra-Low Cost Airlines
• 14:22 Navigating Foreign Ownership Limits in Aviation
• 25:55 Transition to New Horizons in Aviation
• 34:14 Building Relationships in Aviation

Transcript

Chris Glass: 0:00

Welcome back to another episode of the Jump Seat. I am with Jim Sullivan. Jim, welcome to the show.

Jim Sullivan: 0:05

Thanks, chris, great to be here.

Chris Glass: 0:07

I've been wanting to film this one for a long time and get you into the studio, so thank you so much for coming in.

Jim Sullivan: 0:14

It's my pleasure.

Chris Glass: 0:15

So I think the best part is to start out. You have had a very long career in the industry, so why don't we start about getting to know you a little bit and tell us about your, what brought you to Calgary and and how you ended up here?

Jim Sullivan: 0:29

Great, well, thanks. Well, first of all, it is great to be here and great to be talking with you once again. But yeah, I started in aviation as that kid that wanted to be an airline pilot from a very early age. It was my only goal in life and I just pursued the flying career as a young guy. Right out of high school I started flying at a local airport. Several years later I got all my ratings done and started instructing and got into aviation completely through the civilian route. I had some interesting stops along the way. One of my first jobs I was towing banners at the beach in Ocean City, maryland.

Chris Glass: 1:08

In the US. Now what was on the banners?

Jim Sullivan: 1:12

Anything, Everything from happy hour to wedding proposals, to you name it Right. It was quite interesting and you're a young guy, you know where the pretty girls are on the beach, so you wave the wings as you go by.

Chris Glass: 1:25

Right, 100% yeah.

Jim Sullivan: 1:28

So it was quite an experience. I also worked for the US Naval Academy as a civilian flight instructor. Okay, built up my hours through those two activities mostly, and then I started flying what at the time was a big business canceled checks between the banking centers in the US, first in a light aircraft and then in Learjets later, and that's how I got my jet time.

Chris Glass: 1:52

Wow Okay, I didn't even think that was an industry.

Jim Sullivan: 1:54

Well you're probably too young to remember this, but when you wrote a check it had to be presented at the bank it was written from, so your credit card company would get your check and it's got to be flown back to the original bank before they get paid. And so there was a network of aircraft I mean literally, I think probably well over 100 in the US that was transporting paper back and forth all night long.

Chris Glass: 2:20

And they were kind of paid by the banks, paid by the credit card company, either the Federal Reserve or the bank itself.

Jim Sullivan: 2:26

It was quite a large business at the time and of course, as the paper went away that business dried up. But that led me to joining a startup airline in 1994, frontier Airlines in Denver Spent 21 wonderful years there as a pilot Instructor, got into the labor side. A small group of us started an independent pilots union there, okay, in the late 90s, and that kind of built into through negotiating contracts and the research. That's where I developed a real love for the business side of it right, and so I ended up leaving the labor side, working as a manager in the business side and moved my way up and ultimately became vice president of flight operations.

Chris Glass: 3:14

So we have a vice president of flight operations. That started out from the labor side.

Jim Sullivan: 3:19

Exactly.

Chris Glass: 3:20

That is not a usual story.

Jim Sullivan: 3:22

Well, and it was a good. It was a having both sides Right. It was a great experience and it was a great tool to help me learn my way into the business, because I'm not trained as a business person. I was trained as a pilot.

Chris Glass: 3:36

Right.

Jim Sullivan: 3:37

And ultimately a bunch of things happened. My wife and I had kids later in life and I stepped down from the management role. But once I got back to flying full time I discovered that my love really was for the business.

Chris Glass: 3:51

Really for the business side.

Jim Sullivan: 3:52

And that led me to leave the company and go join a startup in California called Surfer.

Chris Glass: 3:59

Okay.

Jim Sullivan: 4:00

And Surfer was a very interesting model where it was a shared use model with business aircraft, and so there was a network of business aircraft flying through California, through the major business centers, and the members had an app and they paid a fixed fee per month and, rather than typical fractionals or charters, these airplanes were moving all the time and that members just had access to the seats on those aircraft, right, so you?

Chris Glass: 4:29

could book without having to. Yeah, deal with airport security or anything like that. So almost your own private jet, but not quite.

Jim Sullivan: 4:36

But shared with members in the service Excellent. And FBO to FBO, small airport to small airport and FBO to FBO, small airport to small airport. In the Bay Area, the company used an airport called San Carlos, which is literally minutes from Facebook, Google, all the big tech companies right there in Silicon Valley, so it was a very interesting model. The model evolved. The company ultimately decided to go to an asset light model and move flight operations out and into other private operators. Once that project was complete, I ended up moving on.

Chris Glass: 5:12

And then, where did you?

Jim Sullivan: 5:12

go From there. I spent a summer in Colorado with my young kids driving to swim team practice every morning Good Loving that and I spent a short time with a regional airline called Great Lakes out of Cheyenne, wyoming. Great Lakes was kind of on its last legs and we were trying to figure out what we could do with the assets and the model. But while that was going on, I was spending time with the folks at JetBlue in New York and ultimately in early 2018, I joined JetBlue as vice president of flight operations.

Chris Glass: 5:45

One of the craziest JetBlue experiences I've ever had. I really like JetBlue when I'm in the States. I flew from out of Havana on a JetBlue aircraft which to be flying out of Cuba on an American aircraft in any way, shape or form was crazy.

Jim Sullivan: 6:00

In fact, the only time I've been to Cuba is I operated one of those flights in the Airbus Just. Couldn't even get off the airplane.

Chris Glass: 6:07

I've been to Cuba Like just sitting there boarding an American company's aircraft leaving Cuba was fascinating to me, but that was my good JetBlue experience that really stuck with me.

Jim Sullivan: 6:18

Yeah, that was. Jetblue is a great company, great brand, right. A lot of positive changes happening there today that I think there'll be a player here in the US market Right. But we went through. You know, getting to New York, moving to New York with my Colorado family was challenging.

Chris Glass: 6:37

It's just a small town like New York, right? What's the difference between Colorado and New York right?

Jim Sullivan: 6:42

Exactly what's the difference between Colorado and New York Exactly, but we went through COVID out there and anybody that was in the airline business through that period. It's something none of us ever could have imagined, but that experience led me to be recruited to join Lynx Air here in Calgary and I joined in October of 2022 as chief operating officer.

Chris Glass: 7:06

Right.

Jim Sullivan: 7:07

So, and it was, you know, lynx. Everybody, I think, knows the business model. Maybe it's a little bit newer in Canada, right, but having the backing of Indigo Partners out of the US was very interesting to me and a great opportunity.

Chris Glass: 7:23

Now's talk about the Lynx, lynx days and and and how that went. So you joined the company and as COO, and what was the status then? How was the company doing what? Where, where were the opportunities?

Jim Sullivan: 7:37

So I joined the company roughly four months after the start of flight operations, so it was very, very early, very young. We spent a lot of time looking at the systems that we were using, the procedures, the tools available to the team to execute the mission every day, and we needed a lot of work. Frankly, you know very, very rapid growth. So six airplanes when I arrived. Nine months later we're at nine and taking eight more. Wow. So you know, ultimately there was an order book there to get to 46 aircraft over five years. So aggressive growth, and we really spent a lot of time trying to put a foundation in place to support that growth, which is extremely challenging.

Chris Glass: 8:30

So to get to 46 aircraft. One of the things I really appreciated about Lynx's business model is I had the ability to go out and see your aircraft, see a turn or two. There seemed to be a real good sense of identity on what the offering was. Very clear mission. You know no thrills, you know no food, but the cheapest possible way to get from point A to point B. Is that a challenging business model? I think I know the answer, considering the track records of ULCCs in Canada. But how challenging is that business model in the Canadian environment? Do you think it could be successful?

Jim Sullivan: 9:09

Yeah, so the model itself, I think you know, at Lynx we actually stripped it down more than most, right, there was only poured water service, there was no beverages, you know nothing for sale on the aircraft, and we thought our differentiator would be that we provide better service, we provide a better experience in getting from A to B. You know, the ultra low cost model, of course, has traditionally been challenging from a customer experience perspective and we were concentrating and focusing on the right team members, the right folks to deliver the product, to provide that elevated customer experience just through interaction, right, I mean you don't remember what people say, but you remember the way they make you feel and that was a work in progress.

Jim Sullivan: 10:03

We weren't perfect right out of the gate by any means, but I think that the model, the business from the customer perspective, of the fare structure and providing a basic low fare and then paying for your services I don't think that's as familiar in Canada as it is in the rest of the world the US and Europe Definitely and I think it's something that people are learning about. We got so many positive reviews from customers when we'd be on the aircraft and talk to folks. You know, spend some time interacting. You know invariably oh, you've enabled me to go see my grandkids every month. You know those kind of statements and it's not just our business model but the ultra low cost model enables people to do that. You've enabled me to go see my grandkids every month. You know those kind of statements.

Chris Glass: 10:49

And it's not just our business model but the ultra low cost model enables people to do that. I remember I was spending some time with one of the managers out in Calgary and I asked, because I've known this gentleman for a long time he seemed pretty enthusiastic about his role and I said it seems like you're really enjoying this. Like, what do you enjoy the most about working for Lynx? And he said see that family over there. There's no way they get to Toronto if they're not booking us. Like they just can't afford it. Like I talked to them checking in and there's a family of four, a family of five, going across Canada for, I think, less than $600. Like it was something super cheap. And I mean, yeah, the ancillary fees can get you a little bit more, but to see how proud he was that that family was able to go cross country was pretty cool.

Jim Sullivan: 11:36

That's awesome, yeah, yeah, yeah. The fees. You know it's interesting too. I always challenge people and I say, well, go book a ticket and buy the services that you want and add up all the fees and see where you are. And invariably it's still significantly cheaper than the duopoly here in Canada.

Chris Glass: 11:54

And it seems like the duopoly is kind of answering the ULCC model by trying to get into it themselves on certain parts of their cabinet and certain parts of their ticket. So there's got to be something there, yeah.

Jim Sullivan: 12:05

Oh, I think it's a perfect competitive response, right.

Chris Glass: 12:09

Right.

Jim Sullivan: 12:10

The difference is, I think, when you take a brand new MAX 8 and you have 189 low fare seats. It's a different model than an airline, with a mixed cabin and has a few seats in the back to offer.

Chris Glass: 12:26

Right.

Jim Sullivan: 12:27

So I think it's a great competitive response. They're doing it in the US as well, all the major competitors. In fact there's been some public statements made about maybe the ultra-low-cost model is soon to be extinct. I think that all models evolve. So as the big guys evolve, so will the ULCCs, and I think everybody has. You know, there's obviously airlines that are on stronger financial footing than others, as we just experienced. I think everybody will evolve and you know, I think, that capacity for the most part is there to stay.

Chris Glass: 13:05

The model is here to stay. Like you just said, the capacity is here to stay. What went wrong and I know that's kind of a million-dollar question, but I know a lot of people in Canada were looking at Lynx as the kind of the heir apparent to the early days of WestJet and kind of filling that third vacuum or a race between Flare and Lynx at the same time. So can you give me some insight into that?

Jim Sullivan: 13:32

Yeah, I get asked all the time. You know we were betting on you guys and above other players in the business.

Jim Sullivan: 13:41

It's very simple, it takes a tremendous, tremendous amount of capital to start any airline, much less an ultra-low-cost carrier. We were starting with a fleet of brand-new MAX 8s at tremendous cost. It takes a tremendous amount of capital. Now there was a significant amount of capital raised, but there was almost more than twice the initial raise required to get us to profitability north of $100 million additional Additional and at the end of the day, our investors were not ready to take that risk and they decided to take their capital elsewhere.

Chris Glass: 14:22

Now did the foreign ownership limits kind of throw a kink in that right, like you couldn't just go to an American investor to raise the money you needed to have Canadian side kind of playing along or upping their investment to keep that ratio or yeah, so in Canada any individual foreign entity can only own 25 percent, less than 25 percent.

Jim Sullivan: 14:45

So we had a US company with the expertise that owned less than 24.99 percent of the equity. Then you get into different creative funding systems to inject more capital, but at the end of the day they can only own 25% of the equity. And that was the company that had the expertise and success with the model all over the world. At the end of the day we got to a point where they couldn't take over and just inject the capital and our company would move on and we were not able to raise enough Canadian capital to bring the ratio up for everybody. So it's, you know, it's, it's.

Jim Sullivan: 15:28

Look, it's not for the faint of heart right, I mean you're talking hundreds of millions of dollars at risk on an unproven market, you know, and the Canadian market is a 10th the size of the US. So it's challenging, but I ultimately look. We got to nine aircraft. Nobody. No, in my mind there's no way you're getting to cash positive at nine aircraft. But for a couple months in the summer, right, we had to almost double from that point to get to a point where we're generating cash, and that should have happened in late 2025 had we been able to execute the plan.

Chris Glass: 16:08

Now, what was the response? I know the duopoly as you referred to it earlier on was very aggressive. What was the response to? Lynx was very aggressive. What was the response to Lynx? What was the response to a Calgary-based startup coming at the low fares in the market?

Jim Sullivan: 16:28

Well, I'll tell you this the response from the entire industry was aggressive. You have Flair, at significantly greater size and growing. You had Porter, you had the duopoly. Everybody was aggressive. Typically in the ULCC model right, you look for city pairs, markets that either only have high fare competitors, but we were in a situation where we were starting by connecting the major cities in Canada and the response from everybody was to dump traffic into some of those city pairs. So, for instance, Calgary to Toronto. At one time I think, we had six airlines flying Calgary Toronto. Obviously, that puts tremendous pressure on the fare and the revenue environment and it hurts everybody and it was at the same times as your flights.

Chris Glass: 17:28

Did you see a difference between the prices on your competitors when there was a Lynx flight versus later on in the day when there wasn't?

Jim Sullivan: 17:39

Absolutely.

Chris Glass: 17:40

You saw that kind of a we're going to drop capacity, cut the fares and on the flights where we don't necessarily have links or a ULC competition, the fares stay, kind of up there, and the best example of that is, unfortunately, the day after we ceased operations.

Jim Sullivan: 17:58

We watched the fares go almost double. Oh, overnight yeah.

Chris Glass: 18:04

Yeah, and not just for tomorrow's flight, right six weeks out, seven weeks out, eight weeks out, interesting. So with that, now that you've been through what you've been through, what will it take for a ul's like? I mean? We were at the abbotsford airport talking with stephen John Graddock and David Gellin and some of the smarter industry people you know, and there's no right answer from, there's no consensus, but in your opinion, coming from the States, seeing those models be successful in the States, is there a future for ULCC travel in Canada?

Jim Sullivan: 18:42

So the ULCC fare structure right, like, for instance, if you look at a city fare where you can offer a low fare. Let's say, from here to Vancouver, the fare might be $39. The problem is that's only a small component of the total cost $39. The problem is that's only a small component of the total cost. So in many places in the world you can take that $39 fare and with fees and everything it might become $52, right.

Chris Glass: 19:16

In Canada that fare ends up being over $100, right, so it's hard to stimulate a market when the fee structure gets you. Not fee structure, sorry, the tax structure gets you.

Jim Sullivan: 19:24

It's challenging. I don't think it's impossible. Right, because the duopoly is still going to charge a higher fare and the total package again, when you add it all up, it's still. The ULCC can still provide a compelling fare, but that fare is not $39. All in? Yeah, right, we used to offer we had a little we'd offer the loony sale on Tuesdays where you could literally buy the fare for $1. Yeah, because you hope that some ancillary fees are going to come in, but that's not $1 fare, right?

Chris Glass: 19:57

What did that? What was a typical round trip dollar fare in actual cost to the traveler?

Jim Sullivan: 20:05

Right off the top of my head, let's say, here to Vancouver is probably going to be around $80, $90, I would think.

Chris Glass: 20:13

Okay, so again for everybody who's listening here, $2 goes to the company and $87 goes to taxes, Something along those lines.

Jim Sullivan: 20:21

That is crazy, yeah, and think about you know here to Toronto is even more mind blowing.

Chris Glass: 20:28

Yeah Well, it's funny, in Canada we don't consider airlines or airports to be essential, right Like. In the same way we consider roads and train tracks. And you know, all of you know, if you had to pay for every road that you ever drove on, you'd say no, this is an unacceptable uh situation. Yet that's how we deal with airports in canada and it's you know. We're trying to trying to get some attention for that, trying to, but this is not a new story in canada yeah, you know and uh to try to get people to think of airline airports anyway, as um not a profit center.

Jim Sullivan: 21:05

not a profit center yeah.

Chris Glass: 21:06

Like like a conduit to business, a conduit to travel, not lining your pockets, kind of thing. So it's interesting. Ok, so that's a bit of a challenge. Do you think that could be overcome by finding that sweet spot in between where the I guess legacy carriers and the upstarts can get that price point down to something that works, where you can stimulate traffic, or yeah, I mean and that's the challenge in Canada is there hasn't been a pure opportunity.

Jim Sullivan: 21:38

right, there's so many. There's different airlines competing for that same six airline market. Right, like you need to go find the true markets where there's just Air Canada or just WestJet and go in as a ULCC and see what you can do, see what you can do Now.

Jim Sullivan: 21:55

The second part of that problem is there's not a lot of those markets in Canada, right, but today there's not a lot of those markets in Canada, right, but today there's not a lot of those markets. Are there some in the future? Because the distances in Canada almost always require you to fly.

Chris Glass: 22:10

Yeah.

Jim Sullivan: 22:11

You know it's a vast country and, unlike the US, in the US, if you've ever flown across the US at night, it's just city after city after city after city right.

Chris Glass: 22:21

The secondary market world is Unlimited. You just have to be creative.

Jim Sullivan: 22:28

Yeah, I remember one of the big ULCCs down there had publicly stated in one of their earnings calls a couple years ago they still have 400 more city pairs that they think fits the model that they haven't addressed yet and I was like, wow, 400?

Chris Glass: 22:44

I don't think we have 400 city pairs in Canada. Right, yeah, probably not One thing that as a longtime industry, I mean, this is my 25th year in airlines. By no means as much experience as you, that's plenty.

Chris Glass: 22:59

One thing I've always noticed in Canada is we've had our fair share of bankruptcies. And airlines exit the market and almost always they're chaotic. And airlines exit the market and almost always they're chaotic. You know, jets go quite famously stranded. A bunch of people uh took aircraft, uh brought them back to another city. Um, you know they're accepting fares late into the night even though they knew they weren't operating. One of the things I was really impressed with with links was how orderly and how um, I guess respectful the shutdown was. That had to have been a conscious decision. So I want to talk about that conscious decision here for a little bit, if that's okay.

Jim Sullivan: 23:36

Well it gets back to. Part of our DNA was we're going to provide a better experience, even in the ultimate failure of the company. We got together as a team and we went to the investors and said, look, we don't want to shut down at midnight and have everybody stranded all over the place. How about we come up with a three-day plan and we slowly wind things down? And that was approved and funded by our investors. And that's exactly what we did.

Jim Sullivan: 24:03

It did not go perfectly smooth. Just the news of the CCAA filing smooth. Just the news of the CCAA filing. We had airplanes arriving in our Florida cities and the ground handler refused to marshal them into the gate. And in one instance that I remember so vividly, the ground crew decided ultimately hey, the right thing to do is we got to bring them in. So, against their company, they brought them in. We were able to deplane that aircraft, but we were not able to fill it with folks coming back. So, unfortunately, 180 Lynx customers watched us fuel up an empty airplane and back it off the gate and fly it back to Canada because the handler wouldn't.

Chris Glass: 24:50

Just that one more turn was a bridge too far, yeah, and it's unfortunate because you're not hurting links at that point.

Jim Sullivan: 24:57

No, you're hurting the customer Right and that was unfortunate. But we did get a lot of folks and all of our crew members back home before we actually ceased operations Sunday evening.

Chris Glass: 25:09

You had such a vibrant group of people working for you. I've had the privilege of going through that office and seeing that feel and that vibe and that energy that continued after Link's ceased operations. I know you worked tirelessly to make sure that this shutdown went as good as it could have gone for everybody, including people who were owed money. So what was that process like? What happens after Sunday? So the traveling public knows. Sunday Lynx is shut down and you think the moving trucks are there on Monday and then it's over. What happens next?

Jim Sullivan: 25:45

So you made a comment that I want to address first, and that is the team members, the crew at Lynx themselves. We announced on Thursday night or Thursday afternoon and we let everybody know we'd operate for three days and a lot of companies you wouldn't be able to operate. No people would and without exception, every one of our crew members came to work, did their job, took care of the customers as best they can. Most of the office staff was let go the next day, on Friday, and on Friday afternoon we got everybody together for a photo and I'm going to take that photo every job I have for the rest of my career. Everybody's smiling.

Chris Glass: 26:28

I remember that photo.

Jim Sullivan: 26:29

It's. It's awesome, it was awesome. It was a great experience. That way. The goodbyes are hard you know businesses, about relationships, and saying goodbye to well over 500 people was difficult, but it it truly will stay with me. That part was absolutely amazing and I thank the team for that. The process is, you know, and of course, just a few of us stayed on till the end of the process. My part of the process just ended June 30th when we finally handed the affairs of the company to the monitor in the process.

Jim Sullivan: 27:07

So it's been a learning experience. You know it's interesting to have gone through it and have the experience, although I don't ever want to leverage that experience again, it's not a muscle you want to flex off, but you know it's a very boring and monotonous process.

Jim Sullivan: 27:25

You slowly wind down. We ended up getting some value back for our investors through asset sales and whatnot. And then, slowly but surely, just you know the claims from the trade, vendors and the employees and all those things. You got to go through every one of those items and it just takes time and it's monotonous and it's not positive Right. It takes time and it's monotonous and it's not positive right. Typically, business is challenging. The airline business is always challenging, but you're solving a problem that ultimately results in airplanes moving.

Chris Glass: 27:57

Right.

Jim Sullivan: 27:58

And the CCAA process for an airline is extremely difficult and it's not very exciting, but it's just something we got through slowly but surely.

Chris Glass: 28:10

And yeah, you're right, it's not something you want to do often in your career, but it's something to at least put in your, your hat and it's funny, some of the folks you deal with in that process.

Jim Sullivan: 28:21

That's what they do, right they wind up companies.

Chris Glass: 28:25

Wow that must be a depressing. Yeah, I'm a grim reaper. Okay, so June 30th, that's all wound up. Now what?

Jim Sullivan: 28:36

So the moving what's old is new again, day before yesterday we settle on our house, the sale of our house here, wednesday, actually, I'm sorry, tomorrow and then we're moving back to the US. So we're moving to the Denver area Back. My wife born and raised there, both my kids born there. I lived there most of my adult life. So we're heading back. We'll be there early August and then mid-August I'm joining a new company, a new but old company, right Called Surfer Mobility, which is the company, the evolution of the company I was with 10 years ago.

Chris Glass: 29:21

So tell me about it.

Jim Sullivan: 29:23

So I'm joining as president of Air Mobility, which Surfer has evolved into a company that has three elements. It has a scheduled airline element. It has a technology pillar that is developing an operational system for all short haul mobility companies. There's all kinds of EV, toll and products, and some of those developments are also building an infrastructure and some are not. This would be a platform that any operator can use in short haul aviation, whether it's electric, traditional, what have you. And then the third part of the company is the development of electrification for the Cessna Caravan.

Chris Glass: 30:09

Wow, that's ambitious.

Jim Sullivan: 30:11

Yeah, it's very ambitious, very interesting, exciting, exciting business to be joining. I'm going to have the air mobility piece, so I'm going back to my airline side. Right and the two brands. It's together the largest commuter airline in the US through Southern Airways Express and M Mukulele Airlines in Canada. I'm sorry, Hawaii.

Chris Glass: 30:34

It was funny. When you said Mukulele, I got nostalgic because, like I said, I go to Hawaii quite a bit and I used to fly on a previous version of Mukulele I believe it was Mukulele Go and just doing the inter-island hopping and getting to see different volcanoes and stuff like that. So I get a little nostalgic when I hear that.

Jim Sullivan: 30:54

Yeah, it's going to be fun. I can't wait. I have not seen Mukulele, so one of my first tasks, I will have to do some research.

Chris Glass: 31:03

So okay. So going back to your roots, going back home, that's exciting. That's a new venture for you. I would love to, when you get your feet wet, to come out to Colorado and see the operation and talk to some of the folks there and go from there as a pilot, which is in your DNA, in your roots. The electrification of aircraft must be something interesting to think about it really is. Because a dead battery is problematic.

Jim Sullivan: 31:34

I would say yeah, and I know that there's definite capabilities in battery technology that still have to happen. You know, when you talk about energy density between a battery and jet fuel, there's some hurdles there. Still, you know, it's one thing to provide or operate a proof of concept aircraft on a short distance, but ultimately the battery technology has to, has to keep up to allow you to fly the same mission that a caravan would with jet fuel.

Chris Glass: 32:05

The other thing that I often think about when we talk about alternative fuels for airlines electric hydrogen is how airports are really built around. Jet fuel as an infrastructure, right, like you know, stick the hose in the ground. It doesn't just pump out hydrogen, right? So how do you get airport partners involved in kind of discovering what the future is going to look like, like your FBOs, your commuter airports? How do you get them there?

Jim Sullivan: 32:36

Well, I think the overarching benefit is that sustainability is on everybody's mind, right? So when you provide, you're going to have to develop a relationship with that provider that says here's what we want to do and here's how you will benefit from our relationship, right? Whether it's hydrogen or electrical charging or what have you? I mean, when the first electric car came on the road right, the only place to charge it was your garage.

Chris Glass: 33:04

Yeah.

Jim Sullivan: 33:05

Right, if you ran out of juice at the grocery store, what did you do? And now you know the infrastructure to support electric vehicles is much more robust. Yeah, yeah, so it's an evolution, right, I mean? And when the first product comes to market and comes with a mission, you'll see the providers you know reacting and building that infrastructure to support the business right when it hits that critical mass, then it'll just tip.

Chris Glass: 33:32

Yeah, I think so excellent, well, okay. So going back home to colorado. A question I ask everybody uh on the pod, because I'm a travel nut, I love to travel. Where should I go next? What's the? Where should I be spending my travel dollars?

Jim Sullivan: 33:47

Warm weather or.

Chris Glass: 33:48

Hey, I love Hawaii and I love Iceland, so we can go in either direction there.

Jim Sullivan: 33:54

So I mean, if you're asking me, I've spent the most of my life living in or near the mountains, right, so I am a, I'm an island soul, whether it's the Florida Keys or the Caribbean or Bermuda, right, that's where I, if I'm spending my travel dollars, that's where I want to go. So Bermuda, I love Bermuda.

Chris Glass: 34:16

Okay, that's the next place I need to go. Yeah, perfect. Well, I really appreciate you fitting this interview in before you leave our country. I have to say, getting to know you has been a big pleasure of mine and you know, I wish that you were here for the next six years building the next ULCC juggernaut. But I know we're going to be in touch and I know we're going to stay close. So, jim, thank you so much for coming on the pod today.

Jim Sullivan: 34:42

Chris, it's been great and I look forward to your visit in the US. Awesome, thank you.

Chris Glass: 34:47

And that's today's Jump Seat. Thank you so much for spending.