FLYHT's JumpSeat
FLYHT's JumpSeat
UK Met and the Art of the Possible: Innovations in Weather Data Collection
In this episode of The Jump Seat, host Chris Glass sits down with Lisa Marvin, a commercial manager at the UK Met Office, to explore the fascinating intersection of meteorology, aviation, and data innovation. Lisa shares insights into the pivotal role of aircraft, including partnerships with airlines like Loganair, in capturing atmospheric data using advanced water vapor sensors. These sensors enable better weather predictions, contribute to climate modeling, and even hold potential for contrail avoidance, making the skies greener and safer.
With a rich history dating back nearly 200 years, the UK Met Office has been at the forefront of weather science, from supporting the D-Day landings to today’s cutting-edge climate initiatives. Lisa’s unique journey from law enforcement to weather contracting highlights the diversity of opportunities within the organization. This conversation is a deep dive into how technology and collaboration across industries are shaping the future of global weather systems and the fight against climate change.
Hello and welcome to another edition of the Jump Seat. I am Chris Glass and I'm very excited with my next guest, Lisa Marvin. Lisa, where are you from? Tell me a little bit about yourself.
Lisa Marvin:So I'm from the UK Met Office in the UK, obviously, as I just said. So we're based in Exeter, in the southwest of the country in England, and I'm here visiting Flight Aerospace because we awarded a multi-million pound contract to you guys last year for the production of water vapor sensors.
Chirs Glass:Excellent. What do you do for UK Met? Tell me a little bit about that.
Lisa Marvin:So I'm a commercial manager, so I deal with all of the contracting. If whatever the Met Office needs in terms of goods and services, I would put a tender out to market, invite bids, that sort of thing. So it's uh it varies. It's all about sort of contracting, life cycles and supply and management, relationship management, that sort of thing. So yeah, it's very diverse, lots of projects, and I did the same in my past life within law enforcement for the police.
Chirs Glass:So and you spent 20 years in law enforcement helping out the police department in the same area of England.
Lisa Marvin:Yep, devon and Cornwall Police so that they we cover the well they did. I say we, I'm not there anymore, but they covered the largest geographical area policing area in the UK, which obviously in Canada terms is minute, but we were quite proud of that.
Chirs Glass:But a very dense minute place.
Lisa Marvin:Oh yes, and where we are in the southwest it's very popular with tourists, so the population would swell and grow triple in size over the summer months. So that was such a policing challenge. But I did it again similar to the Met Office now. So the latter years that I was there it was predominantly commercial and procurement-related activities, but to start with I was working in the police control room dealing with emergency calls.
Chirs Glass:So in North America it's 911, but down there it's 999. 999.
Lisa Marvin:But you can actually dial 911 in the UK and it'll still. It'll still work, yeah.
Chirs Glass:Ah, I didn't know that. Yeah Well, that'll be something I'll have to memory hole for later. So talk to me about UK Met. What's the organization about what?
Lisa Marvin:do, you do.
Chirs Glass:What do you?
Lisa Marvin:represent. So the UK Met. So I'm going to say don't confuse us with the Metropolitan Police Service. Okay, that has happened. We've had people interview for jobs and then they realise it's not the Metropolitan Police Service, it's the Meteorological Office Weather, not cops. So, as the name suggests, it's all to do with weather, weather systems predictions. It's almost 200 years old. I'm not going to go into history because there's way too much there, but it's absolutely fascinating. So we used to work predominantly with the Ministry of Defence, so it was a service that was provided to them. We were integral in terms of the D-Day landings. Obviously, it's the 80th anniversary this year.
Lisa Marvin:Wow'm actually going to normandy next week so for the d-day commemorations, um, yeah, it it's, it's fast, it's um. Mail office is very sort of science and tech driven. Now it's uh, sort of I want to say world. Really we're a go-to organization. So, you know, bear in mind UK and the size, but it's the experience and the so yeah, and they're part of the government or a government agency right.
Lisa Marvin:Central government cabinet office. So we're now under a department called the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology. So, as with most governments, you get a new broom and then the department name changes. But yeah so that's relatively new. So yeah, interesting times, but yeah, that's our focus, so weather reporting.
Chirs Glass:So I want to go back to something you just said, before we start talking about what's coming up in the future the D-Day landing. What was UK Met's?
Lisa Marvin:role there.
Lisa Marvin:It was predicting the weather for that particular crossing, so to predict which day it was the one to go on. So I mean, if you're interested in that sort of history, there was forgive me again, I can't remember what the German commander's name was, but he basically called it and said I don't think the Allied forces are actually going to cross on this day, and he decided that he was going to, I don't know, disappear somewhere else into Europe. But they predicted the weather, the tides, what it was going to be like, because obviously it was a huge endeavour really.
Lisa Marvin:so all those small boats. So yeah, it's integral at the actual Met Office. We've got the original um penciled maps and all that with all the weather charts and it's. It's mind-blowing. Honestly, it's just fantastic, wow.
Chirs Glass:I'm gonna have to check that out.
Lisa Marvin:It's all on our website, so yeah, yeah, fantastic.
Chirs Glass:Okay, so let's talk about the partnership between UK Met and Flight Aerospace. So how did you get involved in that and what is it?
Lisa Marvin:Tell me about it.
Lisa Marvin:Okay, so we identified a need.
Lisa Marvin:I mean, historically, we've always been heavily reliant on sort of weather balloons that we would put up and to measure sort of wind that we would put up and and to measure sort of uh, wind, uh, humidity, rain, um, on it goes, precipitation, that's the word.
Lisa Marvin:Um, I should ought to get that one in, really, didn't I? Um so, and we, we knew that there was a gap and we were aware um a colleague who, since retired, was integral and he he, you know, knew about the water vapor sensor and the the not predecessor, but spectra sensors, yeah, and, as I say, yeah, he was integral in getting the project moving and securing funding for it. Just, the data that we derive from the sensors will obviously help in predictions and improving our visibility of what's happening, and we've partnered as well with Loganair in the UK, right, so the sensors that we'll be buying will be fitted on their Embraer 145 aircraft flying just in the UK airspace and it will measure the sensors will measure the humidity in the atmosphere on ascent and descent of the aircraft. So that data is going to be hugely valuable to us.
Chirs Glass:Right, I think the weather in England is relatively easy for me to tell all the time. Isn't it Always rainy in London?
Lisa Marvin:No, manchester, which is the northwest, tends to be. As I've spent quite a few years up there, that tends to be the wettest area. I would argue.
Lisa Marvin:We're sort of where we are in the southwest peninsula. It tends to be a bit more I don't say tropical, because it's far from tropical, but there are areas in Cornwall that have got you know, there's plants that grow there because the sea and things like that, yeah. So it's very changeable. It tends to be a lot warmer and drier in the southeast and the higher north. You go the damper and miserable. It gets Right, but it's very changeable and they're forecasting a very wet summer at the moment. Now.
Chirs Glass:I don't think many of our listeners know. I certainly didn't before I started at Flight and started to learn about this project and started to learn about the WVSS sensors and this project in whole is how much meteorological services rely on air traffic for data. So can you give me a little bit about that? Not a huge amount really I know you're not necessarily on the science side but this is a huge part of the pie that is being filled in.
Lisa Marvin:Yeah, I think it's because the opportunity and what's derived from it in terms of what's up there and other than sort of ground level, the data we get, not necessarily data per se, but the information that we retrieve from a vast number of devices across the UK and beyond marine satellites and marine sensors out in the North Atlantic, english Channel, irish Sea so, yeah, I think it was just. Yeah, it's endless in terms of what upper atmosphere information that we can retrieve from the sensors and the forgive me, I can't remember what the other parts of the Derek will kill me, I'm sure. But yeah, um, all the different component parts that sit there, but I always refer to everything as the water vapor sensor itself.
Chirs Glass:But yeah, and that builds the model. Uh, not only for the weather.
Lisa Marvin:People telling you and I modeling exactly but modeling, uh, everything, yeah.
Chirs Glass:With the way the globe's changing, that's got to be something that governments really care about and really need the data for.
Lisa Marvin:Yeah, I think it fits into certainly the sort of you know. I mean, climate change is something we're very passionate about the Met Office, right, and it forms part of what we refer to as our strategic actions. So this feeds into that, essentially, but also, obviously, the data derived from the census we can share with other government agencies, partners. So I think it just feeds into so much it's going to be hugely valuable, right. Who are you sharing this data with? We're not sharing it with anybody at the moment. I think that's the future, that's where we'd like to take it. We'd like to partner with other airlines as well to try and install more sensors and get better coverage. We've got partners in Europe currently that we work with. I don't know if it would be reciprocal moving forward, whether or not.
Lisa Marvin:Because, there are, as I say, other partners that already have sensors fitted on the aircraft I think it's Lufthansa, actually, and yeah. So whether or not, how it's going to work, moving forward, that's our. All we want at the moment is the data for ourselves to study.
Chirs Glass:To study and get Absolutely yeah. And then to figure out what's the next step with it. Excellent, okay, so we talk a little bit about the future. What are some potential uses for this data?
Lisa Marvin:we're very much focused on um. I know we've mentioned meredith already and she's across this far better than I am in terms of the value adds, but I think it's mind-blowing actually what's been discussed today. I think we're very much focused on at the moment, just looking at the different modelling and the predictions in terms of the UK weather. I mean, one of our strap lines for the mayoral office is keeping people safe and thrive and allow them to thrive, or words to that effect, so that it feeds very much into that. But uh, yeah, it's very broad and there's lots of things that have been tabled and discussed. But yeah, I could tell you, but I'd have to shoot you first.
Chirs Glass:Fair enough and then you'd have to call triple nine absolutely and you know I've alluded to them earlier.
Lisa Marvin:So the ministry of defense in the uk. So you can imagine that in terms of security-wise and things like that. So the opportunities are endless.
Chirs Glass:So I get what's in it for UK Met.
Lisa Marvin:I get.
Chirs Glass:what's in it for the partners like DOD, all the different government agencies? You mentioned Logan Air. So Logan Air is putting the sensor on their aircraft. They're collecting the data for you. What's in it for Loganair?
Lisa Marvin:When we initially I mean, we weren't approached by Loganair directly, it came via flight, that sort of connection we understood at the time, and I think it's still very much the case, that it feeds very much into their sort of sustainability aspirations around contrails and that sort of thing. So, um, but it's, I think, because of the other sort of, as you know, the component parts that sit with the sensor itself, what can be, I think that's probably what that I mean they'd have to speak for themselves, obviously. But, um, having sat through and understood fully what, what's, you know, the art of the possible, as it were, um, yesterday, and just seeing things, that what these devices can actually do beyond what we're, you know, procuring them for, um, I should imagine, from a commercial perspective, that that's what Logan Air would be very much interested, outside of their, as I say, their sustainability aspirations and that sort of thing.
Chirs Glass:So, using this government program they can outfit their aircraft with devices that they want that they would probably want to pay for themselves, but kind of wrap it up with a government program as well. That's excellent. Okay, so you mentioned contrails. Every time that comes up I get some interesting emails from people asking me about contrails. So contrail avoidance is something that I think is kind of the future for airlines and I think at some point we may see government mandates around that. So has there been anything in the UK Met Office about contrail avoidance becoming something that is front of mind?
Lisa Marvin:for airlines. It's not been something that the Met Office has been focused on specifically, but it is something that we've again that's come come out of the, the conversations and negotiations with logan air. Um, so it's on the agenda as such and obviously fits into the, the wider sort of net zero that all the different things that are sort of prominent and you know at present. So, um, but yeah, it's, uh, it's yeah, it's huge, isn't it so?
Chirs Glass:so using this data modeling to avoid contrails, to avoid turbulence, to better predict weather, uh sounds like a pretty big win uh for everybody across uh across the island, yeah definitely excellent. What does more accurate weather predictions and modeling uh do for the people of london, the people of england? Sorry, I keep saying london, because that's the place I always experience when I go to england.
Lisa Marvin:But uh, london ought to be its own country. Right, because it's not like the rest of england in the uk it's not.
Chirs Glass:There's a lot more room the moment I leave London to walk around, but what can that better data modeling do for England as a whole?
Lisa Marvin:I mentioned earlier, it's very much. It feeds into a much wider so with our sort of national weather systems, and so it just feeds into that. So it's just the accuracy essentially. So, focusing purely on, as I said, you know, the keeping people safe and helping them to thrive. I'm not sure who came up with that strapline, but I guess it covers all bases. But, yeah, right, so it's very much about that. I mean, as I say, it's very, it's much, much broader than that in terms of the sort of strategy behind things. It's I'm probably not across it as much as I say it's very, it's much, much broader than that in terms of the sort of strategy behind things. It's uh, I'm probably not across it as much as I probably should be, but yeah, the science behind it, but it, yeah, it's incredibly valuable and incredibly exciting. So now.
Chirs Glass:I've been there during um last year's heat wave, which was was quite dramatic actually.
Lisa Marvin:I think you were seeing it before, wasn't it Two years?
Chirs Glass:ago. You're right, yeah, two years ago we actually had to uh source an uh air conditioner on short notice because our uh relatives down there are elderly and we wanted to make sure that they were were taken care of, and at that point the people were glued to the tv trying to figure out when the fever was going to break and when when they could start kind of living their lives back to a little bit more normal. I can only imagine that this kind of information is invaluable to those predictions of those warnings to keep people safe.
Lisa Marvin:Yeah, I would say it's a key part of it, amongst others other modelling that we do at the Met Office. Yeah, it was a concerning time. Obviously we had I mean, the UK's not generally equipped for extreme weather, whether it's an inch of snow or anything above 28 degrees we seemed to go into a complete meltdown, but yeah, but yeah, it's a fantastic opportunity to be able to provide more. The data itself. It's whether how much in advance in terms of warning, it's going to do. I'm not. Yeah, I'm not that close to it, but yeah, we'll see what happens.
Chirs Glass:Moving forward and with these new kind of not new necessarily, but over the past, at least my lifetime I've seen the weather in Canada change considerably. With those extreme weather changes it must become so much harder to model the data without as many data points as you can get. So it seems like this is a pretty big step forward for everybody.
Lisa Marvin:Yeah, 100%. Yeah. I know I keep saying it, but it's yeah, the opportunities are off the chart really so let's talk about some of those opportunities.
Chirs Glass:What's in the future for UKMET?
Lisa Marvin:There's so many. I mean, high on the agenda at the moment obviously, as I've already said, is climate change Right. We've got lots of projects we offer grants as well to. We've got a lot of partners in sort of Africa venturing out into Asia at the moment. So, yeah, we've got our fingers in a lot of pies, but I think climate change is probably high on the agenda. So all of this really is going to feed into that and our ultimate sort of aspirations. But specific contracts and projects.
Lisa Marvin:honestly, it's Probably more general than what you're able to say on the pod I think so it's probably a good way of putting it, but yeah, but that's certainly up there and, like I say, everything feeds into that, I think. I think that's at the root, that's the golden thread, isn't it? Climate change at the moment.
Chirs Glass:So 100, yeah, yeah when you talk about the grants and the grant process, how does uh, let's say, I'm an airline who wants to get involved do we approach flight? Do we approach uk met um? Where do we go to find information on those grants?
Lisa Marvin:um they. They tend to be um more. We have there's different um we refer to them as portals, but different places where we'll advertise that funding and invite people to apply for it. So they tend to be more sort of localized projects. They're not sort of I mean. There are sort of significant spend amounts involved, some of them one million plus um but then there's some that are 25 000 pounds, you know it's sort of.
Lisa Marvin:So they're very sort of diverse and varied. Um, I mean something. I mean if you, if you're looking at this particular project, um, if you're in airline and you've got wind of no pun intended, um, uh yeah, the the opportunity to get some water vapor sensors installed on your aircraft, right then it would. I, I would hazard a guess that that airline would contact flights and then then the the approach.
Chirs Glass:Yeah, yeah, is there anywhere uh I I know for other agencies like yours uh, specifically uh, north america and that kind of thing. There they have areas of the world where they don't have great data on right and they're asking you know specifically this route, that route, that kind of thing? Is there any routes that the UK Met is really interested in trying to find more data on? Is it all over the country or is there certain places where we're looking for a partner more so than others?
Lisa Marvin:Or is there certain places where we're looking for a partner more so than others? A lot of the work at the moment is being done, let's say, in Africa and Asia. Asia, it's sort of quite new to us. We're still finding our feet there, but I was trying to think about anything else, really. Yeah, we're 100% not UK-focused, that's the thing it's.
Chirs Glass:Well, I don't think you can be with the way weather moves, right, you know, because I mean, it's all it's, it's all linked, isn't it? So what?
Lisa Marvin:what you guys get here, we're you know, I mean, I think it's new york, isn't it that we've always said that what the weather's like in new york is generally what we're going to get five days or thereabouts thereafter? Okay, I'm still a bit not I'm not necessarily convinced by that, but, um, but there, yeah, it's how things move. And, yeah, you can't be.
Lisa Marvin:You've got to think global these days, it's not yeah so asia's kind of an area, africa is kind of an area where you're looking like, actively looking for partners or just actively looking for more information, that kind of yeah, so when I when I say sort of looking for partners, it's generally it's existing projects and and things that happen in within those, those countries, or in country, as we refer to that. Um, so it could be, you know, water it could be. I mean, we've got a massive project out in the amazon at the moment.
Lisa Marvin:So and I I don't say I don't call me on any of this, because it's just again, it's not my baby, it's not something I've been involved with, but colleagues in my team at work have been involved with it. So lots of, lots of things. So, as you'd appreciate, amazon significant in terms of rainfall and um yeah and just, yeah, just the environment generally sea waste, waste and plastics, that sort of thing, so scarce water resources. So, yeah, it's lots and lots of amazing projects that we issue the grants to or award grants to.
Chirs Glass:so yeah, what gets you the most excited? Like I can, I can sense excitement in your voice when you're talking about the work you do yeah I can really feel it yeah why are you excited about working for uk? Met like what. What builds that excitement for you?
Lisa Marvin:I think with with the uk met office, it's very much the diversity of the projects that you get to be involved with. That's not to say the work that I used to do in law enforcement with the police wasn't exciting because buying new police cars and uniform was a bit, but that was very one-minute. I'd be buying toilet roll or window-cleaning services minute. I'll be buying sort of toilet roll or window cleaning services, whereas at the Met Office I'm I'm involved with, you know, contract negotiations for water vapor sensors, um, and lots of other different observation based uh weather observation based systems and things like that.
Lisa Marvin:So it's yeah, it's very, very, very diverse and I think the rewards are incredible. So, if you get the project right, so that that's generally what excites me is just the opportunity to do something good.
Chirs Glass:There's not many people that can actually say they're kind of on the front lines of the climate change fight, and it sounds like UK Met is leading the pack and out there doing what they can to lead Likewise with, say, other partner agencies.
Lisa Marvin:So, noaa we do quite a lot of work with NOAA, right. Lots of sort of maritime agencies in the UK with shared collective goals and aspirations about how we can make everything a little bit better on our little tiny little island. So, yeah, lots, lots of exciting projects and, um, great people that we work with. So yeah, perfect.
Chirs Glass:Well, we're looking forward to expanding. Uh, our partnership with uk met as as much as we can and uh, you know it's uh, the more I learn. Like I said, I'm an airline guy. I spent 20 years working for an airline before this, and water vapor was brand new to me.
Chirs Glass:The sensors were brand new to me. Just the possibilities of the data coming off, being able to drive decisions is just mind-blowing and very cool to be a part of. I read in prep for this podcast. I read that during COVID, with all of the aircraft that were no longer flying, that the weather models kind of broke and I didn't realize that aircrafts were so vital to those modeling. So you know, it's such a huge part of what we take for granted which is asking Siri or Google hey, what's the temperature today?
Lisa Marvin:I know I mean I had no comprehension or appreciation of what aircraft airlines do commercial airlines and military as well. They're involved, Of course. Yeah, it blows my mind, Honestly, it does. It's just crazy. So, yeah, I mean I've only been involved. My mind, Honestly, it does, it's just crazy. So, yeah, I mean I've only been involved with this. The project was ongoing. They were trying to get it off the ground for probably a few years before I got involved and I just fell into it by accident because I stood in on a project board meeting one day.
Lisa Marvin:Three years later, here we are.
Chirs Glass:Getting it across the line, yeah, exactly.
Lisa Marvin:We awarded the contract last year. So this is just. This is all just. Yeah, my visit and everything it's just been able to. It's the cherry on the cake.
Chirs Glass:So normally I have airline experts come on. I'm definitely not one of those, right? So this is why this is going to be an interesting question, because airline people tell me all the time all these fancy places to go to and it's something I ask everybody I'm assuming it's not just Calgary, but as a traveler seeing the world. This is an airline podcast, so we try to get a little bit more airline reach here. Where should I go next in your travels? What has been the best place you've gone? Where should I go next?
Lisa Marvin:I I love italy you love italy italy is beautiful, lake como in particular.
Lisa Marvin:Northern italy, hoping to go back to either sardinia or sicily this year in september, um, but equally I love the us. I love california. Okay, yeah, yosemite has got my heart. So, um, but yeah, but unfortunately because my my trip to canada is so brief, or calgary it's um, I'm not going to get to see it, but I'm definitely coming back. But I think if I had to say to anybody this side of the pond, I would say go to italy okay, yeah, yeah maybe not some of the more touristy places, because yeah, they're just daft, it, it's just ridiculous.
Chirs Glass:Right.
Lisa Marvin:too many people yeah, and maybe Greek, some of the smaller Greek islands. They're fantastic as well.
Chirs Glass:Okay, so Italy and Greece? Yeah, perfect. Well, lisa, thank you so much for spending some time with me today no thank you. That's it for today's episode of the Jump Seat. We'll be back with more great episodes coming up soon. Thank you.
